JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Critiques and lyricists

I was reading the post about the guy who is a great lyricist who seldom commented on anyone's work and when he did he was harsh.

This is a business. You should be tactful and nice to people. Critiques should be honest but not mean. Find the good in a work and then critique it.

Someone here said being a lyricist is a cop out. I don't think so. I wish I could be a musician, vocalist and lyricist--/singer/songwriter, I guess that's the term.

There are a lot of talented people on this site and I'm fortunate to have found it.

Sylvia

Hi Again Sylvia & a BIG WELCOME!

You are soooo right. Being a lyricist is an awesome thing and certainly no cop out. I'm glad when I open a newspaper there are words and a photo Man who needs a photographer for a magazine lol
Honestly I'm finding alot of cases lately where it's the singers, players,producers and not the lyricists who are copping out. Relying on only some singing chops or style and sound or worse yet LOOKS to get a big fat royalty check as a "Songwriter"

Giving constructive criticism is a knack all in itself. Some people don't always have that knack and some never even the desire to try to. And that of course is fine as there's others who will.

Hope to see & hear you around

All the best
Mike

Sylvia : Welcome.
There is no good time to mention this, but I am really tired of seeing Mike's music workstation as part of his avatar, signoff, or whatever. Sir, please delete this. I can see it on multiple music magazines.
Ott

Ott
You are kidding, right?

I hope you're kidding Ott. Mike, I for one love seeing that photo every time I see you post. Keep it up. I am sure others would agree.

Hey Ott,

Is Mike's bigger than yours ?

cheers, niteshift

Slyvia;

I glad someone brought this topic up...as a lyricist...feel I am second class citizen. Bottom of the pool. Why does the industry treat lyricist that way?

I agree that tact and diplomacy should come into play when critiquing someone's song. No reason to mean about it or get personal here ...life is to short...we are striving for the same goal.

Petra

P.S: The Avatar is the choice of the postee/unless there are rules about this?

Sylvia most singers, musicators, lyricists and musicians are generally bottom of the pool in this industry.....even those few who make it are usually thrown back to drown after a very short period of time.
Yes when commenting or critiquing it is nice to be nice but it is better to be honest.....that does not mean nasty. It means frank and honest and above all FAIR. Some say concentrate on finding the positives...well I say concentrate on pointing out the negatives...it is easier to sort if you know what is wrong rather than just knowing what is right. So with that in mind I prefer to give and receive constructive criticism. There is a lot of gratuitous back patting in this forum and in the industry in general that IMO is counterproductive.
Now lyricists only...well there was a huge thread on this very subject here not so long ago and the feelings were mixed....It might be worth reading through it. My opinion on the matter is that lyricists should have some musical knowledge and at least know some theory of music composition.....this would make them better lyricists and would prevent their writing becoming predictable, one dimensional and full of elementary errors that people with musical knowledge would not make.
Whilst I agree that there are some great musicians who cannot write decent lyrics and there are some great lyricists who cannot play decent music......it does no harm to learn the whole process even if you are going to concentrate on just one element.

PS. I also do not have a problem with any avatars except if it is offensive or contravenes any of the site rules. Yours is cute BTW but on a personal note it is better for me if I can see a face to match up with the person. It is more friendly. I also am not a lover of usernames I prefer people to use their real names and not hide behind a handle.

Hey Sylvia,

I wouldn't be too concerned. No-one really gives a crap about your lyrics, unless they are stellar and are going to make someone some money.

Same goes for music, or any of the arts in general.

We're all on the bottom of the dung pile. So, welcome to the cess pit.

cheers, niteshift

Big Jim:

You have sound advice...is it possible to learn music latter in life...how hard is it...keyboard?

Peta

Obviously it is down to each individual as with everything aptitudes vary. All I am saying is it does no harm and will improve lyricists all round skills if they understand the concepts of putting music to lyrics and lyrics to music. Learning piano or guitar is probably the best way to improve any musical theory. I suggest learning piano as it can be more geared to digital recording and editing. A good electronic keyboard and MIDI function lets you have the whole orchestra at your fingertips. That will give you a better understanding of arranging. You need to know about musical structures....things like beats/bars and time sigs plus middle eights lifts choruses pre-choruses etc etc etc and how each instrument fits into a song. Nowadays a lot of musical DIY people can do everything to a very high standard....from writing melody and lyrics to performing it, recording it, editing it and producing and mastering the finished demo. Not knowing at least the basics of all of these skills puts anyone at a severe disadvantage.
It all depends on how much time and effort YOU want to put in and to what standard you want to aspire.
Please remember that ALL the people I know in the industry and I know a lot do it for love and MOST make dollar zero. Even those who do make a living still do it for the love of music rsther thsan money.

G'Morning Mz Sylvia, & "Welcome"!

You find in Any Endeavor there are "Great Ones" who "stoop" to help others on-the-way-up...& there are "Great Ones" who only boost themselves. The Former usually end up WAYyy-Higher, but we'll have to watch & see how The Results phone-in...eh?

ANY Critiques-Rendered here are "Gratis", so expect some Acid in with the Honey, THEN take it ALL With A Grain-of-Salt.

You CAN be a Singer Songwriter...JUST have to learn an instrument OR form a Duo WITH your Musician Friend(s) & hit the stage; I've tried it, but my guitarist of choice turned out to be an Alcoholic/onstage arguments kinda torpedoed THAT career-choice. But..I DO wish you luck in Your Attempt.

As for being a Pure Lyricist-Only...why not? JUST be on the lookout for a Budding Act..or Artist..& make Good Friends there.

THEN, be sure to pen Something Interesting/Novel...so he/she CAN keep the Audience's Attention. Just remember that at any given moment your lyrics are probably competing with millions of OTHER Lyrics that are Already Out There/Yours gotta be VERY Unique and Enjoyable (Or Between-the-Eyes) to stand out from the rest of The Pack. Good Luck at it & Best Wishes,

Big Hugs too,
Stan

Hello Sylvia,

The situation about lyricists being a "cop out" is not so applicable as they are practically extinct in practical reality. The reason is that the majority of writers now write both music and lyrics. And while one may be stronger than the other in cases, the fact of taking an "existing" lyric or an existing melody and writing to it, puts one person or the other in a box. You have to write to what is already there, and that tends to stifle creativity.

That is why the majority of songs written in music centers like Nashville, LA and New York are written on the spot with both music and lyrics going at the same time. And since a majority of the people with "practical application" are artists, the lyric writers are just left out in the cold.

Jim has some good suggestions here. Anyone interested in music at all should have some kind of working knowledge of musical structure and playing an instrument helps greatly in that. In my opinion, guitar is a bit easier because you only have to learn a few chords and if you get into a situation of live performance, guitar is usually much more functional than keyboard. I have enough problem with 6 strings, much less 88 keys.

I work with quite a few people who are more lyric oriented. Jimbeau Hinson, who is my mentor and has written such hits as Setting Fancy Free for the Oak Ridge Boys, and Party Crowd for David Lee Murphy, is primarily a lyricist. He will provide great lyrics when people bring in musical ideas. But he is a GREAT singer so also provides parts of the melody approach as well.
Julie Moriva,is a former school teacher from Green Bay Wisconsin, who currently is a staff writer for Taylor Swift's Big Machine publishing company. She is primarily a lyricist, and really can't sing at all. But she does know a few chords on guitar and can give an idea to the person she is writing with.

But both of them know that they are not going to be able to just sit down and write lyrics then approach someone to "just put music to it." There is something magical about physically sitting down face to face with someone for a couple of hours and coming up with something out of thin air that did not exist before. The challenge of rising up to the bar in a short time, and the knowledge that if you don't come up with something your job depends on it, is a great motivator.

I actually used to be primarily music only. I had other people that wrote lyrics and I wrote with a lot of people. But with each one I learned something and also got much better. Now I am known as much for my lyrics as my music. With the people I work with I usually write about 95% of the song, but it is always about things going on in their lives that they can't see in a unique way. That is my job, finding the extrodinary in the ordinary. And doing it in a way that teaches others to look at things differently, find the "twist" that makes it interesting and will be something that will get them attention and invited back in their subsequent writer's sessions.

It is all craft and practical application. You need to learn about a lot of things. But nothing is impossible.

Good luck,

MAB

Dear Marc;;

I got a lot from your response to Slyvia. For those doing it long distance (not to meet your composer and create on the spot)...makes it hard...



Petra

Petra,

It is hard no matter what you do. Here while everyone does co-write, they are also working between one and three jobs as well. You just don't make a lot of money as a songwriter no matter who you are. Have to pay bills and eat.

So you have to find ways. My job is to help people do just that. And there are many other ways to do this. SKYPE is actually becoming more and more popular for people to get together in their living rooms, while their co-writer is states or even countries away.

Finding ways to maximize the time spent as well. Here we will segment songs out. Getting someone a verse and chorus pattern (Suggestion) and then seeing what they do with it, then back and forth, etc. Is a way that works well. No one gets off track too quickly. If something is not working you have not spent too much time in the wrong direction.

I am mostly involved in promoting and helping local songwriters to get together where they are. Finding events in your area, open mics, writers shows, talent shows, even Karaoke nights,can lead to like minded people. That can lead to organized groups, who get together to co-write, network, and build social networks.

And there are writers EVERYWHERE. Just sit next to someone on a plane or a resturant and mention you are a songwriter. You will hear endless stories about their friends, themselves, their nephew who is a writer. I once had a fourteen person tour from Canada in Nashville. (My "tours" are my private workshops people come to Nashville for) There were two guys there that lived one block away from each other in Toronto.

But it takes getting out of the living room and finding out what is around you. Most coffee shops, bookstores, college campuses, community centers, will have information on creative writer's groups, some of the aforementioned events.

There is actually quite a lot out there. You just have to find it.

MAB

Dear Marc:

Always enjoyed your posts. SKYP, never heard of it will check into it and I will check my community.

The two guys from Toronto going all the way to Nashville when here they live one block away. Wow, I have to shake my head on that one.

I will do what you say and see what happens...I have some posted here but got to try all avenues you mentioned.

Thanks for helping out

Petra

Hi Sylvia,

I just want to butt in for a second and say that the ease or difficulty of writing with someone else greatly depends upon the kind of writer you are. I have written a lot by myself, have my own non-method of doing so, and could and can write both music and lyrics. I think I've done pretty well that way.

Lately, however, I have met another songwriter through my local songwriters group and since last summer we have been writing some really great songs together. The fact that he sends me melodies and I then write the lyrics is not at all restricting to me. In fact, I find it liberating to be able to concentrate on just the lyrics. His music has taken my lyrics in directions I never would have gone otherwise. We have only met once, face to face, and do this all through e-mail. For me, it's easier because I'm still basically writing alone, at my own pace, in my own way. It's just that now half the job is already done.

The flip side is when I find someone's lyrics that really inspire me and I write the music to go with them. That is just as freeing to me, no worries about the words, just feel the music. And I have done several co-writes that way as well.

Maybe this works for me because I wrote alone for a long time, or it's just the way I'm wired, but it works for me. I'm not sure I could do the same thing if we were in the same room.

For a non-performer like me, this is all for nothing if I can't find someone else to make a demo for me or, in a perfect world, find someone to actually record one of my songs, but that's another subject. The thing is, if you are a writer, keep writing but always look to improve by branching out. If that means learning an instrument, getting a feel for melodies to go along with your lyrics, maybe singing your melody a capella, then that's what you need to do. Even if you can do it all, there is never a point where you can't learn something and improve. You have to keep moving forward.

All the best to you and welcome to JPF.

Ricki

Petra,

You try everything you can. You visit other songwriter related web sites. You try to engineer things around you.

The problem with most web sites, is the majority of people involved are just putting things out there so someone can help THEM. They are not sincerely that interested in helping someone else.

We constantly have threads here about the lack of critiques.Someone is always complaining that "they put something up there but no one responded." My question is always "What have you done for someone else's music? Have you done critiques for someone else? Have you offered to help someone else with lyrics or music? To get a friend, you have to be a friend.

That is what sites like this are about. Although many times people are just interested in putting their own stuff out there and not giving of themselves.

But that again, is a human trait and we find ways to deal with it and rise above.

What I see in my neighborhood here in Nashville is that people are as interested in giving of themselves as they are taking from others. They offer help, show up at each other's shows, do things far above and beyond the songs. This is an element very few people understand. yet they see it in front of them all the time. They go get CD"s or tune into current music out there and see the same names on the "inside." Of those circles.

They often don't realize that everyone in this business are friends first, co-writers, musicians, producers, label execs. publishers, etc.second.

All I am suggesting is that people follow that template and create the same thing around them.

That is what all this is about.

MAB

Sound advice to me Marc:

Helping one another is the key...I do this in other parts of my life and I certainly can do it here. I believe that if you help someone...down the road someone will help you in return.

Life is based on that theme...you just can't take and take and not give back...when I was down and out someone helped me and asked How can I repay you back...she said don't worry about it...just help someone else down the road when you are on your feet...and I have, many times over..not bragging. just telling the story.

I have posted and listened to others songs here; though I am not in a position to zero in on weak points or suggesting new lines..(not experienced enough at this stage) but say if I like it or not; could be suited for that type of genre of music.. encouragement...best I can.

I like that nice community feel you are in.

Again, tor the posts...steering me in the direction and thanks for encouragement to try local avenues.

Petra

And there is Ricki to contradict me. LOL!

Look, there is no right way or wrong way to do things. Having full lyrics or melodies are something that many people respond well to. You have to find what works to you. The further you are away from things the harder it is, but it can be done. Rikki actually lives fairly remote but there is a good group up there and she is involved. I like her very much and have seen her grow over the years.

That is what you should work on.If you can find one writer near you, you usually are led to three other writers. Do that over and over and you find yourself being led in the right direction.

It all can work. If any of you want a starting place, NSAI is always a good place to know about.

MAB

Petra,

You might post where you are from. That helps people who might be near you to contact you. Using your real name (if it is different from your avatar) is also a help.

Being as open here is going to be the best policy.

MAB

Yes, the NSAI, sounds like a good start...I heard they have branches or chapters all over the place.

I put my full name on my lyrics posted. Location I can insert.


Petra Schaller
Ontario Canada

Again thank you.

PS: Marc....Is there much ripoffs going on the net? Is that why some don't post their songs on open forums? How are they going to get any wheres is the question?

What is the real deal here?

Hi Sylvia, Welcome to JPF. There's a difference between learning an instrument and learning music. I know folks who play instruments but know nothing of music.

The building blocks of music are scales. If you can sing "Do Re Mi" that is the basic scale. Here's a great exercise to start you on the road to the practical understanding of music:

If you can sing Do re mi fa sol la ti do, and then sing it backwards, Do ti la sol fa me re do, you can begin moving those notes out to simple songs.

Twinkle Twinkle Little Star is:

Do Do Sol Sol La La Sol
Fa Fa Mi Mi Re Re Do
Sol Sol Fa Fa Mi Mi Re
Sol Sol Fa FA Mi Mi Re
Do Do Sol Sol La La Sol
Fa Fa Mi Mi Re Re Do

And Happy Birthday is:
Sol Sol La Sol Do Ti
Sol Sol La Sol Re Do
Sol Sol Sol Mi Do Ti La
Mi Mi Re Do Re Do

Sing those songs with the do re mi words and you are on your way to relating melodies to scales which is a very big step toward the understanding of music. Once you get that, drop me a post at the Music Theory forum on this site and I'll give you more exercises.

All the Best,
Mike

Post deleted by Petra

I agree with everything in Sylvia's original post, except that this is a business per se.

It's only a business if you MAKE it a business, many many writers are less concerned with the business side of things and focus on writing as an art of expression.

There can still be said meaningful things about a lyric or a piece of music, without having it to conform to particular market "requirements".

So, whenever posting it's a good idea to state up front if this is written with the aim of doing "business". Because then there's a whole body of knowledge that needs to be applied, like Marc show with his posts.

Jes sayin'..

Petra,

There are a BILLION rip offs on the net. But probably not what you are thinking, the stealing of ideas. It is losing control over your content. Once you put it out there, it is out there. If you go to You Tube, you will see thousands and thousands of homeade videos to songs that you KNOW they didn't go get permission to use. And some of those are VERY weird. I have seen some of my own songs used in ways I don't particularly care for and recordings I didn't particularly care for. It is the musical equivilant of that night you got really drunk and ran naked down the street that someone took a picture of. now everyone uses their camera phone and THERE you ARE!!!!! Explain that one to your kids!

It is a two edge sword. We need to get our music out there and the Internet is our vehicle. We are 70% more likely to find out about a song or an artist from someone sending an MP3 or a link to a web site. But you lose control.

For my own uses, I am a little guarded on posting a lot of material because I work with song pluggers and publishers who are pitching much of the material and they would rather have control of it first. But I do it on my web site and from time to time on specific sites I am involved in.

Much of what I write is involved with artists and it could conflict on their particular projects so I have to be careful of that as well. i am not going for an artist situation so CD or MP3 sales are not my particular goal.

To each person it has to be their decision. Which is kind of the quanry of the Internet. We want as many people to share in our music as we can. We just like to control their access to it, and what they do with it to a degree.

An imperfect system but it is what it is.

MAB

Dear Marc:

Just dropped in for awhile, appreciation your answers to my inquiry. Fascinating and educational read...as always, your posts are!

You are a window into the world of the Music Business.

Petra

Just dealing with reality.

MAB

Sylvia, I totally agree with you. People can give constructive criticism in a nice way, and I think if they're REALLY wanting to be helpful, being nice will make the songwriter more open to the crit. You don't have to lie to people. If a song sucks scissors, it sucks scissors, but you can still be nice when you explain WHY it sucks scissors. I think that counteracting a tough crit with some positive feedback is always good too. People NEED to be encouraged! Most of us are so self-conscious and afraid of what everyone else thinks, it's a miracle any of us posts at all (and I have always felt that JPF provides the safest environment to do that...THANK YOU, BRIAN!) So IMO, people NEED to find a way to give crits nicely. They'll be better received that way and folks won't want to shoot themselves after reading them!

Polly,

It depends on who is doing the critiquing. I agree with you that it would be nice to get a gentle let down and explination. But in the words of one hit writer I know who was asked privately about his methods. He said "Why should I train someone else to take my job?"

The people doing critiques are usually people in the business, writers, publishers,record execs. There is a lot of the "I moved here, had my head kicked in, starved and achieved, they need to do the same thing."

I don't nessasarily believe that but I do suggest a good thick skin for all of this. Personally I try to be pretty thorough in my reasons for anything, as you found out not long ago when we had a couple of week's conversation on a song you believed in. At the end of the day, you still believed in the song, I didn't and we were still friends.

At the end of the day most of the time, you are going to have to do what you believe in works for you. And you should never depend on one opinion on anything anyway.

Just keep at it. You should be learning something from each song you write. That is really the most important thing.

MAB

Well, Marc AGAIN you are right! (God I HATE to keep saying that!!! ) At the end of the day, we DO still need to keep on keeping on. No matter what anyone says! I'm just saying that crits sprinkled with encouragement might help one be more receptive and grow better. Those folks who are bitter about how badly they were treated IMO should already be wanting to help folks because they wouldn't want them to suffer as they did. That's the way I think, anyway. And I will say this about Nashville, people generally ARE that way! Everybody feels everybody else's pain, no matter what musical level. I've never been in a town where musicians really DO ban together and help eachother out! I sure wish Cincinnati was like that!

Polly,

As I have told you before, Cincinatti IS like that. You should visit Judy and the NSAI group up there. I thought they had kind of petered out but Kevin on here had told me a while back that they were actually doing well.

Much of Nashville is the "What don't kill you makes you stronger" theory. and you really see it on writer's nights.While it may seem like everyone is supportive, if you look right below the surface, you still find it VERY competitive. You find everyone in the audience is a songwriter, so they are really in direct competition with you. So not only do they not really care about you and your music (especially at first) they are wanting you to finish up and get your butt off stage so they can get on.

The critiques are similar and some of this negative comments you talk about come from people's own biases. A lot of what I have to do is say things like "There is nothing so much WRONG with this as there is just not enough RIGHT with it." That usually comes from being a type of song that is overdone, the same perspective, no fresh information, too ballady, or in the same kind of song I have seen killed by publishers or the industry before.

Again,we all have to listen to a LOT of songs here. So our background is going to be much different than most people.

But you are right and I wish more people observed the golden rule. i guess you just always need to end up with someone like me. LOL!

MAB

There is ALWAYS something kind or considerate or positive to say to ANYBODY and there music. Even if it's bad in every regard.

What I have observed in many cases is how people coming coming from left field and can't relate to the person in right field. So they down it. Or just don't get it, then it's really hard to comment on something you just don't get.

Take the artsy singer writer who is also an art major in NYC Manhattan college. Who also lives in the village. Now lets give him the job of reviewing some song by ATP that's the name of a group called "Alabama Thunder Pussy"

Not happening man. For me it's easy I'll get in both there bands as a player and a writer. Never mind not get along or relate.
Except that NYC guy is gonna be a REAL pain in the ass to get anywhere with as a writer, so I know this already so therefore I'll know how to go about it...

You have to have an OPEN mind to do anything.